ARNOLD, Associate Justice.
This case comes before us on a petition to review an order of the National Labor Relations Board to cease and desist from interfering with or coercing petitioner’s employees in their attempt to unionize. The order requires the following affirmative action: Petitioner is required to mail to all its employees notices stating that it will not engage in the conduct from which it [521]*521is ordered to cease and desist, and to post immediately in conspicuous places in its plant notices to the same effect. The petitioner contends that in making this order the Board has ignored the constitutional right of free speech, and further, that there is no evidence to support the findings of coercion and anti-Union conduct.
The order to cease and desist does not specify the particular things which the Board considers unfair labor practices and which the petitioner must refrain from doing. However, under the heading “Interference, restraint, and coercion” a number of the defendant’s acts are criticized. It would appear from the specific findings of fact on which the order is based that the Board is complaining about two things. First, that'the petitioner used its policy of generous and liberal treatment of employees for the express purpose of convincing them that there was no need for a union in the plant. This type of persuasion is found in interviews with particular employees who were prominent in the union movement. It was finally brought home to the employees as a whole in a letter distributed the day before the election listing the benefits voluntarily given by the company and asking the employees to check up to see whether their union friends in other plants were getting such liberal treatment.1
The second ground of the Board’s com[522]*522plaint is that the letter to the employees, interpreted in connection with remarks made by officers of the company and a foreman to a few of the men went further than appealing to their loyalty on account of past favors. It justified the inference that in the event the union was formed these voluntary benefits might be withdrawn and a less liberal labor policy followed.
We will first discuss the second ground of the Board’s complaint. The letter, after listing the voluntary benefits, concludes as follows: “And now I’ll close with this promise. In the past your Company has tried to play the game honestly, fairly, and always with the welfare of its employees in mind. Whatever the election on Friday decides, your Company will still continue to play the game, knowing that your interests and our interests are exactly the same.” Though on its face this seems fair enough, nevertheless, it may be significant that this letter, which lists in such detail the petitioner’s voluntary benefits to its employees, fails to state specifically that the benefits will not be withdrawn if a union is formed. The Board interprets this lack of a specific statement against a background of interviews in which representatives of the employer intimate that a loss of benefits may follow union organization. It concludes that the letter was intended to give and did give the impression that these benefits depended on the plant remaining non-union. We cannot say that this conelusion is not supported by substantial evidence. It is true that a trier of fact might conclude to the contrary because the evidence is far from conclusive but we are not triers of fact in this case.
On the basis of this finding the letter is clearly an unfair labor practice. It is one thing to appeal to the gratitude of the employees in order to convince them that a union is not necessary. It is a different thing to suggest that the benefits of a liberal labor policy would be lost if a union is organized. The latter means of persuasion is coercive in nature.2
The Board’s order must be sustained in so far as it requires the petitioner to assure its employees that the benefits it is giving and the liberal labor policy it has adopted will not be changed because they vote for a union.
It may be added that there is little hardship on the petitioner in this order even if the Board were wrong on the merits. If in fact petitioner did not intend to give the impression that benefits might be lost through unionization it should be anxious to dispel that impression by an appropriate notice stating its real position on the question.
Nothing in the casé of National Labor Relations Board v. Virginia Electric & Power Co.3 is contrary to this ruling. In that case the court held that a letter and a speech to the employees, which extolled the company’s labor policy and attempted to [523]*523show that the employees would gain no benefit from voting for a union, was a permissible expression of opinion. But the court was careful to point out that if such a letter, either by its terms or its background, could be construed as a threat or an intimation that economic pressure would be used it was an unlawful means of persuasion. That case was remanded to the Board because the background justified a further finding that retaliation was intended against individuals who promoted the union. In this case no retaliation against individuals is threatened. It is a case of economic loss to the entire group. We can see no distinction in principle between these two methods of unlawful persuasion.
The other ground of complaint by which the Board supports the order stands cn a less firm foundation. It is stated in the brief of counsel for the Board as follows:
“Furthermore, by extolling the Company’s wage and personnel policies and by directing the newer employees to ask the other workers ‘whether they had to fight for wage increases, or whether it has been the practice of the Company to give these voluntarily’, Schweitzer brought home to the employees at large the point of his object lesson to Mulherin, namely that petitioner was prepared to grant the employees individually any concessions they could hope to secure through the Union.
“Moreveor, noting in the letter that ‘this is the time to talk’ about the benefits petititioner had unilaterally conferred upon the employees ‘without fuss or fanfare’, Schweitzer, as Gartner and Dixon had already done, stressed that petitioner had a strong claim ‘to their full appreciation and gratitude’. And he made it unmistakably clear that he desired the employees to repay this claim by a negative vote in the election, a vote to continue, as he phrased it in testifying, ‘under * * * the Company’s sponsorship’. Finally, Schweitzer assured those who had already designated the Union that they were free to repudiate the Union in order to fulfill their asserted obligation of loyalty to petitioner by stating in the letter ‘the fact that you signed some card distributed by the Union [does not] require * * * that you vote for the Union’.”
To support this second charge the Board begins with so-called background findings which it says “reflect the history of organizational activity at the respondent’s plant prior to the time material herein”. The findings read as follows:
“The Union made its first attempt to organize the respondent’s plant late in 1941 or early in 1942. At that time, an organizer stationed himself outside the plant and distributed membership application cards to employees entering and leaving the plant.
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ARNOLD, Associate Justice.
This case comes before us on a petition to review an order of the National Labor Relations Board to cease and desist from interfering with or coercing petitioner’s employees in their attempt to unionize. The order requires the following affirmative action: Petitioner is required to mail to all its employees notices stating that it will not engage in the conduct from which it [521]*521is ordered to cease and desist, and to post immediately in conspicuous places in its plant notices to the same effect. The petitioner contends that in making this order the Board has ignored the constitutional right of free speech, and further, that there is no evidence to support the findings of coercion and anti-Union conduct.
The order to cease and desist does not specify the particular things which the Board considers unfair labor practices and which the petitioner must refrain from doing. However, under the heading “Interference, restraint, and coercion” a number of the defendant’s acts are criticized. It would appear from the specific findings of fact on which the order is based that the Board is complaining about two things. First, that'the petitioner used its policy of generous and liberal treatment of employees for the express purpose of convincing them that there was no need for a union in the plant. This type of persuasion is found in interviews with particular employees who were prominent in the union movement. It was finally brought home to the employees as a whole in a letter distributed the day before the election listing the benefits voluntarily given by the company and asking the employees to check up to see whether their union friends in other plants were getting such liberal treatment.1
The second ground of the Board’s com[522]*522plaint is that the letter to the employees, interpreted in connection with remarks made by officers of the company and a foreman to a few of the men went further than appealing to their loyalty on account of past favors. It justified the inference that in the event the union was formed these voluntary benefits might be withdrawn and a less liberal labor policy followed.
We will first discuss the second ground of the Board’s complaint. The letter, after listing the voluntary benefits, concludes as follows: “And now I’ll close with this promise. In the past your Company has tried to play the game honestly, fairly, and always with the welfare of its employees in mind. Whatever the election on Friday decides, your Company will still continue to play the game, knowing that your interests and our interests are exactly the same.” Though on its face this seems fair enough, nevertheless, it may be significant that this letter, which lists in such detail the petitioner’s voluntary benefits to its employees, fails to state specifically that the benefits will not be withdrawn if a union is formed. The Board interprets this lack of a specific statement against a background of interviews in which representatives of the employer intimate that a loss of benefits may follow union organization. It concludes that the letter was intended to give and did give the impression that these benefits depended on the plant remaining non-union. We cannot say that this conelusion is not supported by substantial evidence. It is true that a trier of fact might conclude to the contrary because the evidence is far from conclusive but we are not triers of fact in this case.
On the basis of this finding the letter is clearly an unfair labor practice. It is one thing to appeal to the gratitude of the employees in order to convince them that a union is not necessary. It is a different thing to suggest that the benefits of a liberal labor policy would be lost if a union is organized. The latter means of persuasion is coercive in nature.2
The Board’s order must be sustained in so far as it requires the petitioner to assure its employees that the benefits it is giving and the liberal labor policy it has adopted will not be changed because they vote for a union.
It may be added that there is little hardship on the petitioner in this order even if the Board were wrong on the merits. If in fact petitioner did not intend to give the impression that benefits might be lost through unionization it should be anxious to dispel that impression by an appropriate notice stating its real position on the question.
Nothing in the casé of National Labor Relations Board v. Virginia Electric & Power Co.3 is contrary to this ruling. In that case the court held that a letter and a speech to the employees, which extolled the company’s labor policy and attempted to [523]*523show that the employees would gain no benefit from voting for a union, was a permissible expression of opinion. But the court was careful to point out that if such a letter, either by its terms or its background, could be construed as a threat or an intimation that economic pressure would be used it was an unlawful means of persuasion. That case was remanded to the Board because the background justified a further finding that retaliation was intended against individuals who promoted the union. In this case no retaliation against individuals is threatened. It is a case of economic loss to the entire group. We can see no distinction in principle between these two methods of unlawful persuasion.
The other ground of complaint by which the Board supports the order stands cn a less firm foundation. It is stated in the brief of counsel for the Board as follows:
“Furthermore, by extolling the Company’s wage and personnel policies and by directing the newer employees to ask the other workers ‘whether they had to fight for wage increases, or whether it has been the practice of the Company to give these voluntarily’, Schweitzer brought home to the employees at large the point of his object lesson to Mulherin, namely that petitioner was prepared to grant the employees individually any concessions they could hope to secure through the Union.
“Moreveor, noting in the letter that ‘this is the time to talk’ about the benefits petititioner had unilaterally conferred upon the employees ‘without fuss or fanfare’, Schweitzer, as Gartner and Dixon had already done, stressed that petitioner had a strong claim ‘to their full appreciation and gratitude’. And he made it unmistakably clear that he desired the employees to repay this claim by a negative vote in the election, a vote to continue, as he phrased it in testifying, ‘under * * * the Company’s sponsorship’. Finally, Schweitzer assured those who had already designated the Union that they were free to repudiate the Union in order to fulfill their asserted obligation of loyalty to petitioner by stating in the letter ‘the fact that you signed some card distributed by the Union [does not] require * * * that you vote for the Union’.”
To support this second charge the Board begins with so-called background findings which it says “reflect the history of organizational activity at the respondent’s plant prior to the time material herein”. The findings read as follows:
“The Union made its first attempt to organize the respondent’s plant late in 1941 or early in 1942. At that time, an organizer stationed himself outside the plant and distributed membership application cards to employees entering and leaving the plant. The following day the respondent posted on its bulletin board a notice, which announced a general wage increase of 5 cents an hour to its employees. Thereafter, organizational activity ceased. Although the record does not disclose what prompted the Union’s withdrawal at that time, employee Carmen LaSalle, a credible witness, testified that, on subsequent occasions when employees were seeking a wage increase, ‘rumblings’ would be heard at the plant to the tenor of ‘we will get a raise, let’s start a little union talk’.”
The Board then goes on to find similar methods of anti-union persuasion which it considers relevant to this case, as follows: The attempt to unionize the plant, out of which this controversy arose, began in January, 1943. The management learned of this activity in March, when a meeting was called. Within a day or two after the meeting the president and chief engineer' decided to interview certain men in order to learn why they were dissatisfied and wanted a union. Only two men out of the 225 were called in by the management. One of them, Lombardi, had been distributing union cards during working hours in violation of the rules. According to Lombardi’s testimony the president asked where he had obtained the cards, why he was distributing them, and why he wanted to join the union. The Board found, on conflicting testimony, that the president then added “we are treating you pretty good, I don’t see why you would do a thing like that”, and punctuated his remarks with a reference to the freezing of wages and the insurance benefits enjoyed by the employees free of charge. During the conversation Lombardi informed the president that his wife was in the hospital about to have a child. In accordance with the previous custom of the management Lombardi was given $50 for expenses. When it was learned later that a caesarean operation was' necessary $50 more was given to defray the added cost. Lombardi testified directly that he never thought the president was trying to influence him in any way. The [524]*524Examiner found that the gifts to Lombardi were in accord with the custom of the management in other cases and further that “the interview carried with it no threats and falls into the classification of an appropriate inquiry made in contemplation of the announcement of an entirely proper administrative rule”. He, therefore, disregarded it as an unfair labor practice. The Board reversed the Examiner on the theory that the ostensible purpose of calling Lombardi before the president was in violation of a rule against distributing union cards on company time. Since the president failed to restrain this activity in the future the Board concluded that the real purpose of the interview was to exercise an improper influence on Lombardi by treating him with liberality and forbearance during the election period.
Another employee, Mulherin, was called before the president and asked about his grievances. The purpose was admittedly to find out whether there were any particular grievances which had caused the desire for the union. Mulherin’s requests were not unusual. They were all granted without any strings attached. He was active in union organization. There is other testimony of this character. The Board attempts to use it in connection with the letter to show that the employer was trying to kill the union movement (1) by satisfying its employees so completely that they would not want a union, and (2) by calling its labor policy to their attention to induce them to vote against the union through loyalty and gratitude.
Certainly it cannot be claimed that an employer would be guilty of an unfair labor practice because he treated his employees well in order to forestall a union movement.4 The question in this case is whether, having done so, he may remind them of that fact and claim credit for it during a period of a union election. It is true that this may be a strong argument against unionization. It would not affect a man who was convinced of the need of a strong union movement for the benefit of labor as a whole. It might convince one whose only concern was the immediate labor policy of his employer. But we believe that the Act gives The employees the right to choose between these considerations' and that the National Labor Relations Board v. Virginia Electric & Power Co. case establishes the employer’s right to comment on them.5 We do not hold that this justifies an organized campaign or a [525]*525protracted distribution of propaganda.6 But such a situation is not before us here. Only a few employees were interviewed and the character of the persuasion was very mild indeed.
The decision of the court is that the findings and order of the National Labor Relations Board will be sustained in so far as they may be interpreted to require the employer in this case to make it clear that the benefits which it is now giving to the employees will not be affected or its liberal labor policy changed because of any future union organization of its plant. Modified and, as modified, affirmed.