ELLETT, Justice:
In March of 1967 the plaintiff herein obtained a divorce from the defendant based upon grounds of mental cruelty. At that time they had three children whose names and ages were as follows: Kurt, 10 years ; Janice, 8i/^ years; and Michael, S years. The parties entered into a stipulation which among other things provided for a split custody arrangement whereby Janice would be with her mother, and the two boys with their father. The trial court ac[238]*238cepted the stipulation as being fair and reasonable, but he wisely provided in the decree that the court would “reserve jurisdiction regarding custody of the minor children, subject to further hearing in the event either party make a showing that the present custody arrangements are not in the best interest of said children.”
The plaintiff filed a petition to amend the original decree and to award to her the custody of the two boys. The trial court denied the petition, and she has appealed to this court from that ruling.
This is an equitable matter, and upon appeal the binding effect of the findings made by the trial court differs from that in a law matter. We may here review questions of both law and fact; and after making due allowance for the advantaged position of the trial judge to observe the demeanor of witnesses upon the stand, we may be persuaded that a finding is against the preponderance of the evidence to such an extent that we would be justified in disapproving it or even in making a finding of our own. Martinett v. Martinett, 8 Utah 2d 202, 331 P.2d 821 (1958); Wilson v. Wilson, 5 Utah 2d 79, 296 P.2d 977 (1956); MacDonald v. MacDonald, 120 Utah 573, 236 P.2d 1066 (1951); Jensen v. Howell, 75 Utah 64, 282 P. 1034 (1929).
At the time of the hearing on the petition the trial court made findings which in substance insofar as material are as follows:
(a) The plaintiff had unreasonably harassed defendant regarding visitation and custody of the minor boys.
(b) The plaintiff and her present husband took the two boys to a clinical psychologist without the knowledge or consent of the defendant.
(c) The plaintiff had attempted to undermine the relationship of the two boys with their father.
(d) The older boy had elected to remain in the custody of the defendant.
(e) The best interest of the boys would lie in their remaining with their father.
The last paragraph is a conclusion and must be based upon the other findings. The first finding numbered (a) above is immaterial to the welfare of the children. In passing it should be noted that the defendant changed his phone to an unlisted number so the plaintiff could not call her sons and talk to them. It is only natural to expect that she would make some effort to talk with her sons.
The plaintiff took her boys to Dr. Liebroder, a clinical psychologist, when it appeared to her that they might be in need of assistance. Later the defendant had the boys examined by a psychiatrist who sent them to Dr. Swaner, a clinical psychologist, for an examination and report. From [239]*239the report and testimony of the psychologists, as hereafter referred to, it appears that the plaintiff acted wisely and in the best interest of the boys in having them examined. The fact that she did not first get the consent of the defendant is of no great moment.
The evidence does not support the finding that the plaintiff had attempted to undermine the relationship of the two boys with their father. It seems to us that the plaintiff has at all times appeared to look out for the welfare of the children. It is the defendant himself who has attempted to poison the minds of the boys against their mother. The evidence would require a finding that he had told Kurt that his mother was mentally unbalanced, an immoral woman who took dope and who took him (Kurt) to see Dr. Liebroder in order to prove him crazy so she could get custody of Michael.
While it is true that Kurt told the judge he preferred to remain with the defendant, it is also true that Michael said he wanted to live with his mother. Neither child can bind the court by indicating a preference. The desire of the child is merely one of the factors to be considered in making a determination of the custody which will be for his best interest.
Let us look at the evidence which came from the two clinical psychologists, one of which (Dr. Liebroder) was hired by the plaintiff, and the other (Dr. Swaner) by the defendant. Their findings did not conflict. Dr. Liebroder found that Michael indicated a feeling of depression, emotional turmoil, conflict, anxiety, and unsatisfied nurturant needs, i. e., needs which are usually satisfied by a mother. The doctor further testified that where there is a significant gap in a person’s development, a load of needs which are unfulfilled, they do not disappear but remain and become expressed in some rather unwholesome ways; that a child deprived of certain kinds of important or key experiences may spend the rest of his life trying to seek those out. He further said that the absence of a maternal figure can result in considerable damage later on, and that the effects if prolonged cannot be reversed by any known treatment.
Dr. Swaner testified that Michael needed to associate and be identified with a significant mother figure.
Dr. Liebroder testified that during the examination Kurt expressed considerable concern about the welfare of his little brother, Michael. He further testified that Kurt felt the examination was instituted by his mother to prove that he was crazy, all as a part of her attempt to gain control of Michael. The doctor further said that Kurt revealed that he had been plagued by questions concerning his mother’s mental and moral conduct; that he indicated that he had been told that his mother had been [240]*240maintaining an illicit relationship with a man in California, and that she had been taking drugs. He said that Kurt then said:
I found out that she isn’t having problems like I thought at first. I thought that she had been taking drugs * * *. I have been told lies. That is what has been separating me from my mother.
Regarding living with the plaintiff, he told the doctor:
I’d have a mother to come home to. I’ve been missing that since the divorce.
He said Kurt had difficulty in making friends and indicated that the best chances of helping him were to make the father and stepmother more aware of, and attentive to, the problems. (Both the father and stepmother worked and left home early in the morning.)
Dr. Swaner found Kurt to be a very intelligent lad, but with emotional disturbances reflecting insecurity, and he recommended psychiatric treatment. He testified that it is important for a boy of Kurt’s age to have a mother figure in relationship to those whom he is around.
During the prolonged hearing the stepmother divorced the defendant and the home life of the two boys has worsened as a result thereof. The defendant leaves for work early and takes Michael with him to the home of his parents where Michael is given breakfast and then sent to.
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ELLETT, Justice:
In March of 1967 the plaintiff herein obtained a divorce from the defendant based upon grounds of mental cruelty. At that time they had three children whose names and ages were as follows: Kurt, 10 years ; Janice, 8i/^ years; and Michael, S years. The parties entered into a stipulation which among other things provided for a split custody arrangement whereby Janice would be with her mother, and the two boys with their father. The trial court ac[238]*238cepted the stipulation as being fair and reasonable, but he wisely provided in the decree that the court would “reserve jurisdiction regarding custody of the minor children, subject to further hearing in the event either party make a showing that the present custody arrangements are not in the best interest of said children.”
The plaintiff filed a petition to amend the original decree and to award to her the custody of the two boys. The trial court denied the petition, and she has appealed to this court from that ruling.
This is an equitable matter, and upon appeal the binding effect of the findings made by the trial court differs from that in a law matter. We may here review questions of both law and fact; and after making due allowance for the advantaged position of the trial judge to observe the demeanor of witnesses upon the stand, we may be persuaded that a finding is against the preponderance of the evidence to such an extent that we would be justified in disapproving it or even in making a finding of our own. Martinett v. Martinett, 8 Utah 2d 202, 331 P.2d 821 (1958); Wilson v. Wilson, 5 Utah 2d 79, 296 P.2d 977 (1956); MacDonald v. MacDonald, 120 Utah 573, 236 P.2d 1066 (1951); Jensen v. Howell, 75 Utah 64, 282 P. 1034 (1929).
At the time of the hearing on the petition the trial court made findings which in substance insofar as material are as follows:
(a) The plaintiff had unreasonably harassed defendant regarding visitation and custody of the minor boys.
(b) The plaintiff and her present husband took the two boys to a clinical psychologist without the knowledge or consent of the defendant.
(c) The plaintiff had attempted to undermine the relationship of the two boys with their father.
(d) The older boy had elected to remain in the custody of the defendant.
(e) The best interest of the boys would lie in their remaining with their father.
The last paragraph is a conclusion and must be based upon the other findings. The first finding numbered (a) above is immaterial to the welfare of the children. In passing it should be noted that the defendant changed his phone to an unlisted number so the plaintiff could not call her sons and talk to them. It is only natural to expect that she would make some effort to talk with her sons.
The plaintiff took her boys to Dr. Liebroder, a clinical psychologist, when it appeared to her that they might be in need of assistance. Later the defendant had the boys examined by a psychiatrist who sent them to Dr. Swaner, a clinical psychologist, for an examination and report. From [239]*239the report and testimony of the psychologists, as hereafter referred to, it appears that the plaintiff acted wisely and in the best interest of the boys in having them examined. The fact that she did not first get the consent of the defendant is of no great moment.
The evidence does not support the finding that the plaintiff had attempted to undermine the relationship of the two boys with their father. It seems to us that the plaintiff has at all times appeared to look out for the welfare of the children. It is the defendant himself who has attempted to poison the minds of the boys against their mother. The evidence would require a finding that he had told Kurt that his mother was mentally unbalanced, an immoral woman who took dope and who took him (Kurt) to see Dr. Liebroder in order to prove him crazy so she could get custody of Michael.
While it is true that Kurt told the judge he preferred to remain with the defendant, it is also true that Michael said he wanted to live with his mother. Neither child can bind the court by indicating a preference. The desire of the child is merely one of the factors to be considered in making a determination of the custody which will be for his best interest.
Let us look at the evidence which came from the two clinical psychologists, one of which (Dr. Liebroder) was hired by the plaintiff, and the other (Dr. Swaner) by the defendant. Their findings did not conflict. Dr. Liebroder found that Michael indicated a feeling of depression, emotional turmoil, conflict, anxiety, and unsatisfied nurturant needs, i. e., needs which are usually satisfied by a mother. The doctor further testified that where there is a significant gap in a person’s development, a load of needs which are unfulfilled, they do not disappear but remain and become expressed in some rather unwholesome ways; that a child deprived of certain kinds of important or key experiences may spend the rest of his life trying to seek those out. He further said that the absence of a maternal figure can result in considerable damage later on, and that the effects if prolonged cannot be reversed by any known treatment.
Dr. Swaner testified that Michael needed to associate and be identified with a significant mother figure.
Dr. Liebroder testified that during the examination Kurt expressed considerable concern about the welfare of his little brother, Michael. He further testified that Kurt felt the examination was instituted by his mother to prove that he was crazy, all as a part of her attempt to gain control of Michael. The doctor further said that Kurt revealed that he had been plagued by questions concerning his mother’s mental and moral conduct; that he indicated that he had been told that his mother had been [240]*240maintaining an illicit relationship with a man in California, and that she had been taking drugs. He said that Kurt then said:
I found out that she isn’t having problems like I thought at first. I thought that she had been taking drugs * * *. I have been told lies. That is what has been separating me from my mother.
Regarding living with the plaintiff, he told the doctor:
I’d have a mother to come home to. I’ve been missing that since the divorce.
He said Kurt had difficulty in making friends and indicated that the best chances of helping him were to make the father and stepmother more aware of, and attentive to, the problems. (Both the father and stepmother worked and left home early in the morning.)
Dr. Swaner found Kurt to be a very intelligent lad, but with emotional disturbances reflecting insecurity, and he recommended psychiatric treatment. He testified that it is important for a boy of Kurt’s age to have a mother figure in relationship to those whom he is around.
During the prolonged hearing the stepmother divorced the defendant and the home life of the two boys has worsened as a result thereof. The defendant leaves for work early and takes Michael with him to the home of his parents where Michael is given breakfast and then sent to. a school to which none of his little friends go. Kurt often prepares his own breakfast.
The defendant can offer no better arrangement for keeping the two boys unless, as he testified:
I’ve thought about several approaches, and checked them out. * * * I checked a nursery school arrangement.
As opposed to this the plaintiff is happily married to a man with a good salary. She no longer works but spends all of her time as a homemaker and mother. She and her present husband live in a good and adequate home in a smog-free area of Southern California. Both plaintiff and her present husband were examined by Dr. Brown, a clinical psychologist, who testified that the plaintiff was, and is, able to assess real life situations very soundly, and that she is a capable and adequate person. He further testified that the chances of a dissolution of the marriage relationship between her and her present husband would be minimal due to the way they are working at and gaining an understanding of that relationship.
It therefore seems to us that Kurt’s best welfare lies in being placed in the custody of his mother. We have arrived at this conclusion despite the fact that he has indicated a preference to remain with his father. Since the divorce, Kurt has not known the joys of family life. An association with his mother, his sister, and his [241]*241brother in an environment of mutual attention and love will undoubtedly give a joy to him which for so long he has been denied.
Little Michael wants to be with his mother. The grandparents with whom he spends most of his time are aged and not in the best of health. He needs the love and affection of his mother, and it seems to us that it would be a tragic mistake to leave him in his present situation.
It seems that in seeking to hold the custody of his boys the defendant has exhibited a great bitterness toward the plaintiff and has done serious harm to his children as a result thereof.
It is to be hoped that both parents will exercise restraint upon any feelings of animosity which they may have for the other and that they each will work for the welfare and happiness of their children in the future, and particularly so in relation to visiting rights of the noncustodial parent.
We reverse the trial court and direct that an order be entered granting custody of the children to the plaintiff, with reasonable rights of visitation afforded the defendant. If the parties cannot agree upon what is reasonable then the trial court might consider a period of one month for Janice and Michael and a period of two months for Kurt to be selected by the defendant during the summer when school is in recess, together with a week every other Christmas. The trial court should also fix the support money to be paid and the question of travel expenses in case an agreement cannot be had by the parties on these matters. The trial court should also award such costs to the plaintiff as may seem fair and equitable, in view of the financial condition of the defendant.
CROCKETT, C. J., and TUCKETT, J., concurs.