SKOPIL, Circuit Judge:
Appellant Ruben Portillo Chavez pleaded guilty to three counts of bank robbery. He moved the district court to vacate his sentence and plea pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 2255. The district court denied the motion. Chavez appeals. Because due process required the trial court to hold a hearing on Chavez’s competence to plead guilty, we reverse and remand.
FACTS AND PROCEEDINGS BELOW
On May 19, 1976 Chavez was indicted by a federal grand jury on three counts of bank robbery. 18 U.S.C. § 2113(a). On the same day he was arraigned and pleaded not guilty.
On May 27, 1976 Chavez appeared with his appointed counsel before the trial judge and expressed his desire to represent himself and to plead guilty in an emotional outburst that resulted in his being removed from the courtroom. The court appointed another lawyer to counsel Chavez. On June 3 the court granted a motion made pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 4244. Chavez was ordered committed to the correctional facility at Terminal Island for a ninety day study concerning his competence to stand trial or plead guilty. The June 3 order was expanded on June 14 to include an inquiry into Chavez’s “mental competency and criminal responsibility ... at the time of the alleged commission of crimes. ... ”
On August 23,1976 the warden at Terminal Island sent the court a copy of the report prepared by Dr. Meyer, following the section 4244 examination.
On September 16, 1976 the trial court granted defense counsel’s motion, pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 3006A(e), for appointment of a psychiatrist to assist in pre-trial and trial preparation. The competency hearing originally scheduled for September 23 was vacated and continued to September 30.
On September 18, 1976 Dr. Levy, the independent psychiatrist appointed to assist the defense, issued a report of his findings. The report indicated that additional records concerning Chavez probably existed from earlier psychiatric treatment. Dr. Levy said his opinion about Chavez’s criminal responsibility might be changed if he could see the earlier records. (He tentatively concluded that Chavez was not insane at the time of the crimes.) The defense requested a further continuation of the competency hearing and plea. On September 27 the district court continued the hearing until October 7.
On September 30, 1976 Chavez met with his counsel. Chavez told his attorney he wished to plead guilty. He apparently also dismissed his attorney at that time. On October 1 the attorney advised Chavez by letter of the possible consequences of a guilty plea. He wrote that he believed it unwise for Chavez to plead guilty or take any further action until the old psychiatric reports could be obtained for Dr. Levy’s evaluation.
On October 7,1976 Chavez appeared with counsel and pleaded guilty to the three count indictment. On October 20 he was sentenced to ten years imprisonment. On December 13, 1976 Chavez wrote to the court requesting modification of his sentence. The motion was denied on January 11, 1977.
Chavez filed a motion to vacate his sentence, pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 2255, on March 13, 1978. The motion was based on the trial court’s failure to order, on its own motion, a hearing on Chavez’s competency to plead guilty. As a related ground, Chavez asserted that his attorney’s failure to request such a hearing deprived him of the effective assistance of counsel.
DISCUSSION
I. Introduction.
Due process requires a trial court to hold a hearing, sua sponte, on a defendant’s competence to plead guilty whenever the trial judge entertains or reasonably [1256]*1256should entertain a good faith doubt as to the defendant’s ability to understand the nature and consequences of the plea, or to participate intelligently in the proceedings and to make a reasoned choice among the alternatives presented. Sailer v. Gunn, 548 F.2d 271, 275 (9th Cir. 1977). On review, our inquiry is not whether the trial court could have found the defendant either competent or incompetent, nor whether we would find the defendant incompetent if we were deciding the matter de novo. We review the record to see if the evidence of incompetence was such that a reasonable judge would be expected to experience a genuine doubt respecting the defendant’s competence. Bassett v. McCarthy, 549 F.2d 616, 621 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 434 U.S. 849, 98 S.Ct. 158, 54 L.Ed.2d 117 (1977).1
II. The Section 4244 Examination.
We note at the outset that the existence of a genuine doubt about a defendant’s competence is not what determines whether the court must order an examination pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 4244.2 A defendant’s first motion for a psychiatric examination under section 4244 may not be denied unless the court correctly determines that the motion is frivolous or not made in good faith. United States v. Ives, 574 F.2d 1002 (9th Cir. 1978), cert. denied, 445 U.S. 919, 100 S.Ct. 1283, 63 L.Ed.2d 605 (1980) (Ives III); United States v. Bodey, 547 F.2d 1383 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 431 U.S. 932, 97 S.Ct. 2639, 53 L.Ed.2d 249 (1977); Meador v. United States, 332 F.2d 935 (9th Cir. 1964). The court need not have reasonable grounds for believing the defendant incompetent. To the contrary, a trial court is not to make such an evaluation. Meador, supra, at 938. Once the motion is made, the trial court should defer making an evaluation of competency until after the examination has taken place.
[1257]*1257By the terms of the statute, a hearing is required “[i]f the report of the psychiatrist indicates a state of present insanity or ... mental incompetency in the accused.” A hearing is not required, on the basis of the section 4244 motion alone, if the psychiatrist’s report does not indicate present incompetence. United States v. Winn, 577 F.2d 86, 92 (9th Cir. 1978) (dictum). A judicial determination of competence or incompetence is required after the mandatory psychiatric examination, regardless of the content of the report. Clark, supra, at 184 n.5; Ives III, supra, 574 F.2d at 1005 n.3.
We recognize that the trial court expanded the psychiatric examination to encompass the question of Chavez’s competence to plead guilty under its inherent power and not under the authority of section 4244. United States v. Malcolm, 475 F.2d 420 (9th Cir. 1973). Nevertheless, the trial court’s focus is the same in determining the need for a hearing. If all the evidence should raise a reasonable doubt about the defendant’s competence, a hearing is required for due process reasons. This is true even if the psychiatrist’s report “indicates” sanity or competence and thus would not require a hearing under the statute.
The problem that confronts us is unlike the usual section 4244 case. Ives, Bodey, Cook, infra, and Meador all involved denial of motions for competency examinations. Here, the examination was ordered and conducted, but Chavez’s guilty plea cut off the proceedings before a hearing was held or a judicial determination of competence was made.3
After the first (mandatory) section 4244 examination and determination, it is in the district court’s discretion to grant or deny subsequent motions for psychiatric examination. United States v. Cook, 418 F.2d 321 (9th Cir. 1969). The trial judge must determine if there is sufficient doubt about the defendant’s competence to make further inquiry necessary to afford the defendant due process. Clark, supra, at 185; Ives III, supra, 574 F.2d at 1005. While the trial court must consider all available evidence in making this determination, we are limited to review for an abuse of discretion. Id. But see Caplan, supra, 633 F.2d at 539.
It is difficult to tell from the record before us whether there was ever a judicial determination of Chavez’s competence. The October 7 proceedings at which he changed his plea were denominated “competency proceedings” in the district court docket. In his order denying Chavez’s section 2255 motion, the district judged noted that at the October 7 hearing the court “observed the petitioner was competent, based on the manner in which he answered the court’s questions, the representations of [Chavez’s counsel] that petitioner had been competent and able to cooperate with counsel, and on the report of Dr. Meyer, the psychiatric consultant who examined petitioner pursuant to Section 4244.”
Since this observation is not recorded elsewhere in the record, we conclude that it was not a judicial determination of competence based on an evidentiary hearing. We interpret the statement as a finding by the district judge, at the time of the section 2255 motion, that there was not evidence [1258]*1258raising a good faith doubt about Chavez’s competence at the time of the guilty plea. Cf. Spikes, supra (record of rule 11 proceeding indicated implicit finding of competence to plead guilty).4
When the trial court has made a competency determination, we apply the clearly erroneous standard in reviewing it. United States v. Glover, 596 F.2d 857 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 444 U.S. 860, 100 S.Ct. 124, 62 L.Ed.2d 81 (1979). When there has never been a psychiatric evaluation and judicial determination of competence in the proceeding, our review is comprehensive. Darrow v. Gunn, supra, 594 F.2d at 771; Ives III, supra, 574 F.2d at 1005 n.3; de Kaplany v. Enomoto, supra, 540 F.2d at 983.
III. Substantial Evidence and Due Process.
As has been noted (see page 3, Introduction and related text), a hearing is required on a defendant’s competency to plead guilty whenever the trial judge entertains or reasonably should entertain a good faith doubt as to that defendant’s ability to understand the nature and consequences of the plea or to participate intelligently in the proceedings and to make a reasoned choice among the alternatives presented. Such doubt should arise when there is “substantial evidence” of incompetence. In applying this rule two concepts are involved: evidence and competence. We first discuss the meaning of “substantial evidence”, then we analyze the meaning of “competence” and the standard used to measure it.
Substantial evidence of incompetence is evidence that raises a substantial doubt about a defendant’s competence. The “substantiality” has nothing to do with the level of competence involved. The degree of the incompetence is important, however, for reasons discussed below.
“ ‘Substantial evidence’ is a term of art. ‘Evidence’ encompasses all information properly before the court, whether it is in the form of testimony or exhibits formally admitted or it is in the form of medical reports or other kinds of reports that have been filed with the court. Evidence is ‘substantial’ if it raises a reasonable doubt about the defendant’s competency to stand trial.”
de Kaplany, supra, 540 F.2d at 980-81 (quoting from Moore v. United States, supra, 464 F.2d at 666).
Each particular bit of evidence is not to be viewed in isolation, de Kaplany, supra, 540 F.2d at 983. One item of evidence, such as a psychiatric report, might be so probative of incompetence that its presence alone requires a hearing. On the other hand, evidence of possible present incompetence, such as a history of psychiatric problems in the remote past, may be so overshadowed by other evidence of present competence that it does not demand further investigation at an evidentiary hearing. Caplan, supra. (But that evidence cannot be ignored in favor of evidence of competence.' Drope v. Missouri, supra, 420 U.S. at 175, 95 S.Ct. at 905.) The trial judge must evaluate all of the evidence in determining whether or not there is substantial doubt.
We repeat, however, that this is not a preliminary determination of competence. The distinction lies primarily in the absence of credibility determinations at the “substantial doubt” stage. The trial court must accept as true all evidence of possible incompetence in deciding whether the evidence is substantial. It may find such evidence not credible only after the actual, adversary competency hearing. At both stages it evaluates the probative value of each piece of evidence in light of the others.
For example, a current psychiatric report might amount to substantial evidence of incompetence and thus raise a good faith doubt that cannot be dispelled by resort to conflicting current evidence of competence [1259]*1259without a hearing. Moore v. United States, supra. On the other hand, an old psychiatric report indicating incompetence in the past may lose its probative value by the passage of time and subsequent facts and circumstances that all point to present competence. See Capian, supra. In the latter situation truly conflicting evidence does not exist because different time frames are involved. A third situation is one in which there is psychiatric evidence of past incompetence and more recent evidence indicating that such incompetence may have recurred. See Drope v. Missouri, supra, 420 U.S. 162, 95 S.Ct. 896, 43 L.Ed.2d 103; and Pate v. Robinson, supra, 383 U.S. 375, 86 S.Ct. 836,15 L.Ed.2d 815. The facts of this case bring it into the third category.
IV. Nature of Incompetence.
While the substantial evidence test remains the same at all stages of a criminal proceeding, the kind or degree of incompetence to which the trial court must be alert changes. See Drope v. Missouri, supra, 420 U.S. at 176, 95 S.Ct. at 906. Trial courts must assess a defendant’s competence with specific reference to the gravity of the decisions the defendant faces, de Kaplany, supra, 540 F.2d at 985. The test for competence is thus traditionally stated in different terms depending upon the decisions and consequences presented to the defendant by the particular proceeding. It might be constitutionally fair to require a marginally competent defendant to make certain kinds of decisions, but not others.
To be competent to stand trial, a criminal defendant must have sufficient present ability to consult with his or her lawyer with a reasonable degree of rational understanding and have a rational as well as factual understanding of the proceedings. Drope, supra, 420 U.S. at 172, 95 S.Ct. at 904; Pate v. Robinson, supra, 383 U.S. at 387, 86 S.Ct. at 843; Dusky v. United States, 362 U.S. 402, 80 S.Ct. 788, 4 L.Ed.2d 824 (1960); United States v. Mills, supra, 597 F.2d at 699.
To waive a constitutional right, a defendant must have that degree of competence required to make decisions of very serious import. A defendant is not competent to waive constitutional rights if mental illness has substantially impaired his or her ability to make a reasoned choice among the alternatives presented and to understand the nature and consequences of the waiver. United States v. Moore, 599 F.2d 310 (9th Cir. 1979), cert. denied, 444 U.S. 1024, 100 S.Ct. 687, 62 L.Ed.2d 658 (1980); Sailer v. Gunn, supra, 548 F.2d at 275; Sieling v. Eyman, supra, 478 F.2d at 214-15.
When nontrial proceedings not involving the waiver of constitutional rights are at issue (e. g., sentencing or probation revocation proceedings), the test is whether the defendant is able to understand the nature of the proceedings and participate intelligently to the extent participation is called for. Sailer v. Gunn, supra, 548 F.2d at 274.
A guilty plea involves the waiver of several constitutional rights, including the privilege against self-incrimination, the right to a jury trial, and the right to confront one’s accusers. Therefore, competence to plead guilty is measured by the “reasoned choice” standard. Sieling, supra, at 214.
We recently acknowledged the difficulty posed for the trial court, and for us, when a determination of a defendant’s competence to participate in one proceeding “spills over” into another proceeding. Spikes, supra, 633 F.2d at 145. For example, if the psychiatric and judicial inquiries are too narrow when the question is competence to stand trial, they may be of no value when the defendant expresses a desire to waive a constitutional right.5
[1260]*1260This problem could be solved if, when the trial court ordered a psychiatric examination of competence, it asked for an evaluation of the defendant’s ability to understand proceedings of various levels of complexity and to understand and rationally choose between alternative courses of action and their possible consequences. When the range of a defendant’s competence has thus been determined, the trial court is free to go forth with all proceedings within that range, without further inquiry, unless subsequent events and the passage of time indicate that the defendant’s level of competence has changed since the evaluation. This will require detailed instruction to the psychiatrist conducting the examination, but the result should be useful, time saving, and less confusing than a single purpose examination.
V. The Evidence of Chavez’s Incompetence.
The following evidence of Chavez’s possible incompetence was before the district court when it accepted Chavez’s guilty plea: (1) a history of antisocial behavior and treatment for mental illness, see Drope v. Missouri, supra, 420 U.S. 162, 95 S.Ct. 896, 43 L.Ed.2d 103; Pate v. Robinson, supra, 383 U.S. 375, 86 S.Ct. 836, 15 L.Ed.2d 815; Moore v. United States, supra, 464 F.2d 663; (2) an emotional outburst in open court, resulting in Chavez’s forcible removal from the courtroom, see Tillery v. Eyman, supra, 492 F.2d 1056; (3) a previous psychiatric finding of insanity based upon psychoneurosis and the use of drugs (drugs were apparently involved in the bank robberies at issue), see Drope, Pate and Moore v. United States; (4) two psychiatric reports, neither addressing the issue of competence to plead guilty, one indicating “adequate judgment,” the other indicating poor insight and judgment, see Moore v. United States, supra, 464 F.2d 663; compare United States v. Moore, supra, 599 F.2d 310; (5) emotional outbursts and Chavez’s firing of his attorneys in connection with the guilty plea issue; and (6) an inference that Chavez had not even attempted to plea bargain, compare Darrow v. Gunn, supra, 594 F.2d 767; Makal v. Arizona, 544 F.2d 1030 (9th Cir. 1976), cert. denied, 430 U.S. 936, 97 S.Ct. 1563, 51 L.Ed.2d 782 (1977).
These indicia of incompetence do not, individually or collectively, reach the levels of the evidence in Pate or Drope. Nevertheless, they should have created a doubt as to Chavez’s ability to make a reasoned choice. They were, therefore, sufficient to require an evidentiary hearing on that issue before Chavez’s guilty plea was accepted.
VI. The Remedy.
When we find that a defendant was entitled to, but did not receive, a competency hearing, we have two choices: (1) reverse the conviction (or issue the writ), giving the prosecutor leave to retry or rearraign the defendant; or (2) remand to the district court (or state court) for a retrospective determination of the defendant’s competence at the time of the guilty plea or trial.
We choose the remedy depending upon whether the circumstances surrounding the case permit a fair retrospective competency determination, de Kaplany, supra, 540 F.2d at 986 n.ll. A fair retrospective hearing has been found impossible in circumstances involving (1) a long period of time between the original criminal proceeding and the remedial hearing, Pate, supra, 383 U.S. 375, 86 S.Ct. 836, 15 L.Ed.2d 815; Drope, supra, 420 U.S. 162, 95 S.Ct. 896, 43 L.Ed.2d 103 (by implication); (2) the availability of only expert testimony based on the printed record, Pate, supra; and (3) the lack of personal observations of the defendant at the relevant time, Pate, supra. See also Tillery v. Eyman, supra, 492 F.2d 1056; Sieling v. Eyman, supra, 478 F.2d 211; Moore v. United States, supra, 464 F.2d 663.
On the other hand, where experts who examined the defendant for the relevant level of competence are still available, with testimony on that issue prepared at the time of the conviction, a fair retrospective competency hearing may be possible. See de Kaplany, supra; Darrow v. Gunn, supra, 594 F.2d 767.
The record in this case does not assure us that Chavez could now receive a fair retro[1261]*1261spéctive competency hearing. Therefore, we reverse the conviction and remand to the district court with directions to vacate the conviction, vacate the guilty plea, and rearraign Chavez.
REVERSED AND REMANDED.